Biman Basu: There are agreements like the Montreal Protocol, for example, that calls for cutting down on the manufacture and use of CFCs over a period of time. But in certain areas like the reduction of the emission of greenhouse gases, there are agreements but their implementation is proving to be very difficult, because the developed countries are not in a mood to cut down their consumption while the developing countries are aspiring to reach higher standards of living ?

Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Well, ultimately the point is simply the following. The whole question of climate change is under very serious discussion. What we know and very clearly is that greenhouse gas build-up in the atmosphere is taking place. It is increasing in terms of concentration. One is not clear thereafter what the consequences will be. The predictions are, there will be, for example, a rise in temperature, and there is rate. And there is an intergovernmental panel on climate change which has estimated this. Furthermore, in those situations there could be a sea-level rise. There could be a variety of changes in climate, such as heavy precipitation in some places, much lower precipitation in other places, increase in activities like hurricanes, tornadoes, typhoons and so on. There are a variety of these things that are coming up. But there is less and less certainty as we go away from the primary measurements, and therefore many people say, why should we spend such large sums of money purely as a precaution? After all, life itself is a risk. But on the other hand, many other people would argue that it is important to spend because many of these phenomena are not reversible very easily. They involve very large inertial areas, for example, the sea, the manner of carbon being held as inorganic carbon and organic carbon - many of these issues come up. Therefore, many feel that it may be too late when we get there and therefore one should do everything possible. Generally this is accepted, but then one comes across the situation of the developed countries who are used to certain lifestyles, certain ways in which they live, transport themselves, their cities are built up and so on, and therefore they don't want to change so easily from what they are used to. On the other hand, as you say, the developing countries have to produce more energy, for survival. And the only source of energy on any large scale in terms of magnitude are the fossil fuels. The developing countries say it's the developed countries who are responsible for the problem so they should cut down their emission levels. So, this debate goes on. It is a matter involving ethics of social justice, of equity, and this will be debated and I think the pressure ultimately will result in change. The question is whether that will be too late.

That is why one had what is referred to as the Kyoto Protocol, where there was an agreement. The effort to try to implement some of it, which took place in a conference of the parties in The Hague recently, was not successful. But there will be further meetings. I think the main point is, people get round a table to discuss, to argue, to try to find out ways and means of solving the problem. That's important.

Biman Basu: On a more local issue, in India we have large-scale pollution of groundwater due to indiscriminate discharge of industrial effluents. How serious is the problem and what is being done about it? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Well, in my view the problem is extremely serious and I think it is time we woke up to the situation. We must regard the situation as grim and deal with it not only in terms of legislation but also in aspects of implementing that legislation. The particular aspects of concern are the chemicals, the heavy metals, which go into the groundwater system and which make it unpotable; in many cases not suitable for even irrigation. Another matter of concern is the fact that as a result of the extent to which we are using the groundwater the table is going down. The aquifers are not being replenished to the extent we are withdrawing groundwater. That is why Gandhiji talked about not using electrical energy to draw out water from the ground. He said, if you are only going to use your own strength as a human being you will never bring up water from depths so deep. Biman Basu: As we have seen, the problem of saving the environment is a colossal task that would require close collaboration between the people, law makers and, more importantly, scientists. Do you think we have adequate scientific manpower to do research to tackles the environmental problems? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: I would say one thing. We are a thousand million people. And to ask the question whether we have adequate manpower is really not meaningful. After all you see that countries like the USA depend on India today for a very significant part of the high-quality engineers and scientific manpower, such as produced by our IITs and many of our universities, for a great deal of what they do in their research labs, their industries. That is why our NRIs have become so important. And now you increasingly see that other countries, whether it's Germany, whether it's UK or Japan, all coming to India for the same purpose. What we have to do is to make a determined effort in the whole field of education - primary education, secondary and technical education, higher education. We have to get rid of complacency, and the worst thing that this country suffers from is complacency on the part of everybody who say, "Sab thik hai. Sab badhia chal raha hai". They cite the increased food production, increased life expectancy, improvement in health care to support their stand. But, one must accept the fact that we still have the largest number of illiterates in the world. We still have 300 million who live below the poverty level, and a variety of such things. So we should not be complacent. Biman Basu: There have been reports that enrollment in science courses have been going down over the past few years. Are you really concerned about this? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Well, I'm concerned, certainly. But, let me make one point. I'm not as concerned particularly about science courses per se. For example, if someone wants to join the IIT, you may say he is going to engineering and technology. But let me tell you this. Training in an IIT is training involving extremely high standards of scientific integrity, of technical quality, and the ability to answer questions and solve problems. That is why the same boys who come out with a B.Tech. from our IIT system are today sitting at the top of financial companies, consultancy companies, airlines, and venture capital companies apart from the areas of software, or biotechnology, or chemical industry, and so on. Why? Because they are trained. I would also say that many big discoveries in science are made by people who were trained as engineers. Our own Dr. Bhabha, for instance, took a degree in mechanical engineering from Cambridge before he went on to do mathematics. Wigner, the Nobel Prizewinner, who made great discoveries in nuclear physics, was a chemical engineer by training. Walter Gilbert did his Ph.D. in physics under Abdus Salaam before he went on to research in biology, which won him a Nobel Prize. So, people do move across disciplines; what's really required is hard training in a discipline which has mathematics and which trains one to ask questions. In all this science is an important component, and all the engineering boys know science in some sense, at least the scientific method. Biman Basu: But what is the status of basic research in India? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Basic research in the country is not what it should be. Not certainly at the level I would have desired, because to a great extent basic research is not supported as well as it should be. Very many people who come into science essentially want to do only theoretical computer modelling type of work. Not so many want to do experimental science, which is the heart of a great deal of good science. Of course, theory and experiments must go hand in hand as you cannot do purely theoretical research. And this arises from the fact that, that is the type of training they get. After all, you can't suddenly, at the Ph.D. level or postgraduate level, have material of the right type. It is from the earlier stages of the X or X-plus-2, or the B.Sc. level and so on that you get a certain culture within the student. Biman Basu: Is the government taking any step to inculcate the culture you just mentioned about from the school stage? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Well, there have been many things which have been suggested earlier. I can recall the times when we had meetings at INSA and the Science Advisory Committee to the Cabinet where we made proposals on excellence in science, improving science education - a lot was done. But unfortunately, at the present moment, there is a great deal of stress talking of science and technology in terms of just artifacts - the end products, if you wish to - which may consist of some particular object which you see and which the media talk about. Whereas there is great neglect of what I would call the fountainheads of new ideas. I'm sorry that basic research is not doing as well as it should for a country with India's background, tradition and what was done before. Biman Basu: Does it portend well for the future of science in India? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: You see, the point really is, many would say that there are many countries, China for instance, who had done basic research but you can't call them truly outstanding, and they have not also won a Nobel Prize, nor has Korea. So, you can say that they are doing extremely well in spite of that because they have great technology, great engineering, well-managed programmes and so on. But I don't think one should go just by that. In my view, there has to a harmony in the system. There must be great scientists, there must be basic research, people must move around very easily from research to application to technology, setting up their enterprises. What we lack in this country is that type of flexibility which characterizes the US education system. Biman Basu: The curriculum? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: Not only in the curriculum, in the whole attitude, framework. Information technology today is a new area. You can't say you have to be an M.Sc. in information technology before you do a Ph.D. J von Neuman, for instance, who built the first computer in the US just after the War, was a mathematician. In fact, all these people who have come into co0mputer science are mathematicians, statisticians, electrical engineers, physicists and so on. Therefore you can't say that when science converges this way there should be narrowness in approach. And we are very inflexible. Biman Basu: But is something being done to change it? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: This is a question, I'm afraid, you must really ask those in government because if I were there I would certainly make proposals. I've made many and I keep insisting on it. In fact, in institutions that I'm concerned with such as IIT, Mumbai, we just started a new school of information technology, we have school of management exclusively for technology management, we are bringing in a new area relating to the whole biological sciences, particularly biomaterials and biotechnology. So, we are trying to make it more flexible. But this is not true everywhere. Biman Basu: What is your forecast for the future? Where will India stand in terms of science and technology two decades from now? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: There are two things. One is, India will keep moving ahead as it has, but what I would really say is that first of all we have to get rid of complacency that everything is fine. Things are not fine. A great deal needs to be done to transform the situation. We must also learn from what's happening elsewhere. Information technology must be used on a very large basis as a force multiplier for these purposes. We must have meritocracy. Yes, at certain levels you do things on the basis of providing positive incentives for people, what's called positive discrimination and so on. But at a certain level, it has to be meritocracy. Somebody who has turned out to be good, has done well, must be encouraged, must be supported. We must have a great deal more flexibility especially in terms of personnel policy. After all, you have to accept the fact that in today's world materialism is one of the most important characteristics. People are materialistic. Therefore if you say, do as you did in the past - a schoolteacher or a college teacher who was paid just enough to lead a very ordinary life - they won't accept it today. Today they demand more because they see their colleagues in industry, in commerce, in finance doing so well. Therefore what is it that you are asking for? Means whereby they can supplement their incomes and so on. All that calls for flexibility in management, administration, and thinking that doesn't exist. Biman Basu: But that would also need resources? Prof. M.G.K.Menon: No, resources will be met otherwise, from society. It's not that society doesn't have resources. But you are not using it flexibly enough, by saying everything should be through government, which should not be the case.